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The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game

Posted by DrCheckRaise 
The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 09, 2012 11:01PM
As the title says, the rules of a poker game can hurt you or help you, the deciding factor is 'you' being in the know.

Players who play alot on the internet can sometimes feel out of place and make some mistakes at a legit LIVE game. The game client takes care of alot of details that you are responsible for in a LIVE game.

I am creating a section that will help you there and also help you take advantage when someone else makes a mistake at the table. Do not count on the dealers to rectify these mistakes. Some will, some won't, but regardless, there are ways you can use these things to your advantage at the poker table.
Things like verbal being binding, (which goes deeper than that) or betting out of turn, and what are the consequences of that. Or maybe penalties in tournaments for infractions. So, think up your questions. There is no such thing as a dumb question and ask it and we will address it as best we can. If you are embarrassed to ask the question simply send it to me privately and I will address it here for all to benefit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2012 11:32PM by DrCheckRaise.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 09, 2012 11:35PM
Our first question deals with the consequences of betting out of turn.

The rule is, That a bet out of turn is binding as long as the action does not change.

Players who play alot on the internet can sometimes feel out of place and make some mistakes at a legit LIVE game. I am creating a section that will help you there and also help you take advantage when someone else makes a mistake at the table. Do not count on the dealers to rectify these mistakes. Some will some won't but regardless, there are ways you can use these things to your advantage at the poker table.
Things like verbal being binding, (which goes deeper than that) or betting out of turn, and what are the consequences of that. Or maybe penalties in tournaments for infractions. So, think up your questions. There is no such thing as a dumb question and ask it and we will address it as best we can.

Betting out of turn is a very common mistake at the poker table. Sometimes it is because a player is anxious, or wants to appear strong, or a player is so used to playing online that he is unaware it is his turn. Maybe it is because someone had their cards not in plain view. There are several ways you can use your opponents betting out of turn to work to your benefit. Here are some examples.

First thing you need to realize is that action out of turn is binding as long as the action does not change. Use that rule. I am in Tulsa at the Hard Rock head up in a hand in a cash game, and have flopped 4 to a flush and am supposed to be the first to act. My opponent has bet $20 out of turn. I make it a point to the dealer that I did not act yet. The dealer made him pull is bet back. So I bet $12. Now his only options is to call my $12, raise to $24 or more, or fold. But he can no longer bet $20. He simply called my $12 bet. To me that was a sign of weakness, so on the turn I bet $55 and he folded. The point was I really didn't want to call $20 for my draw, and I wanted to take control of the hand even though I was out of position. His simply calling my $12 bet when he was willing to bet $20 out of turn gave away the lack of strength of his hand.....

Here is another way to handle the same situation. Say I had flopped a strong hand and wanted to get as much money in the pot as possible. If he bet $20 out of turn, then it was determined that I had not acted yet, the wrong thing to do would be to make a big bet, or any bet at all for tat matter. Because then he can fold and not have to put that $20 in the pot. If I check, then he has to make the $20 bet, and then I can min raise and he will more than likely put another $20 in and then I can determine what I am going to bet on the turn for value.

One time I was in a 1/2 NL cash game and there was a player that was notorious for hiding his cards. Or at least having is hands over them in a way that obstructed them from view. Well he did this and the player behind him bet $5 and then two other players called the $5 before e brought it to the attention of the dealer that he had not acted yet. Then he said, ''Raise''. I told the dealer that he could not raise, that he only had two options, he could fold or call and those are his only options. The dealer then argued with me. Saying that he had not acted yet, he can do whatever he wants. To which I said there was significant action behind him which takes away is options. Call the floor. The floor manager came over and the dealer explained what happened and the floor manager ruled that he could fold or call but he could no longer raise. After the floor manager left the dealer continued to mumble under is breath that was not right. But it is.....
Now.. here is how you can stop that from happening to you. When someone bets out of turn, Call TIME.... yes, you can call time out and any action that takes place after you call time does not count. Significant action is different at some poker rooms, but in general once three players have checked or two player have bet, then that is significant action and nothing can be done to correct an error.


One time I had pocket tens, and the flop came about 9 high, there were three of us in the hand. I was first to act and bet $40, the player behind me moved all in for about $300 and I quickly said I call because he was a loose cannon and I was anxious to get all in with him..... the problem was, it was not my turn. And the player in front of me moved in for more, so I folded. The players tried to say that I had to call, which was incorrect, because play out of turn is only binding if the action does not change. So when the player who's turn it was to act moved in for more it changed the action and made my verbal no longer binding. If he wanted to make more money he should have simply called thus making my verbal binding and then I would have had to call.

One time I made a boat on the river. I was taking my time trying to think about how much I could bet and still get my opponent to call me so I would get te maximum pay off. While I am thinking my opponent said.... Your turn.... no matter what you bet I am calling. He said that as a deter-ant to keep me from betting alot. I am know for big bets at times. Well that was all I needed to hear. I knew the rules at that casino and that verbal is Binding. So I moved all in for $380 and the dealer made the man call even though he wanted to fold. Careful what you say,

So.. if you act out of turn your action or your verbal is binding unless the action changes before it is actually your turn. There are many ways to use that rule to your benefit. And you should. It is not poor sportsmanship. It is a game of rules and limited information. I liken it to the player who had head phones on and did not hear the other player say all in and the dealer repeat all in... not hearing this he decided to bluff and said ''ALL IN'' he made a mistake, but it was his mistake and he has to own it....
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 12:21AM
Heres one:

If a player is next to act and he makes a motion with chips in his hand toward the pot and then draws them back and checks, what is the rule?
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 12:54AM
That's a rule that can change from casino to casino. One of the casino's I play at it's not a bet untill the chips hit the felt, or you verbally declair what your bet is, then at another casino they have a betting line, and if you cross it, those chips go into the pot.

Doc I saw the exact same happen as you, a player say bet what ever you want I'm calling, the better goes all in the other guy throws his cards into the muck, the floor is called and the callers hand is pulled out of the muck, you can guess what happens next, the bettor has 10 J , the caller has KQ on a board of AKQ the turn brings another K, it took 20 minutes to quit things down after that. The floors face was red as a beet, the original better was screaming that his cards couldn't be retrived out of the muck, and the caller was LHAO. I think the ruling was correct because the better is the one to call the floor,het got greedy when he could have taken down a 200 pot unstead of loosing a $600 one

Money don't mean shit to a gambler,its just a way of keeping score
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 03:12AM
Great thread Doc
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 05:41AM
I have bet out of turn. I thought it was my turn, it was not. I raised, was told it was not my turn. The next to act called, knowing I had put a bet out. So I did my raise and he called. Not sure why he just called when he knew I had a raise in. I had kk my hand held up, I never knew what he had. In my casino the dealers know me and they give newbies a break, unless,
someone at the table says no no the rule is.............then the dealer has to go with the rule.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 01:35PM
The rule is that any chips moved forward of the plane of your cards is a bet. Unfortunately you will rarely find this enforced in anything but a tournament. I feel that hand motions with your chips in front of your cards is a variation of a string bet and illegal. A string bet was used in order to get a reaction out of your opponent and I feel that moving any chips forward of your cards accomplishes the same goal.

Check with your local poker room on how this rule is enforced at their establishment.
Some use the Line..... I actually met the man who was responsible (so I am told) for the line. he said it was only to be used as a guide and not as a boundary

Some rooms say any chips moved in front of your cards is a bet of all those chips, others say it is at least a min bet, and still other say you have to drop chips for it to be a bet.

Again, for the good of the game I say it should be any and all chips moved forward of the plane of your cards MUST be bet. But it is going to be your responsibility to find out how your poker room enforced the rule and you should use that to your benefit when you can.

More and more rooms are beginning to enforce the front plane of your cards.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 01:46PM
Gunsmoke told us about the floor retrieving a players cards from the muck. I am totally against that. The rule is that once cards touch the muck they no longer exist. So I find it difficult to see how you can make something come back into existence once they no loner exist. I understand what the floor was attempting to accomplish there because since they were making the guy call, they felt is was a proactive consolation to let him have his cards. No one expected him to win.

I have seen dealers unknowingly pick up a players cards and muck them even though they are still live... That as NEVER happened to me... I protect my cards like they are my children. When I expose my hand, I am still touching them. I usually have them face up on the felt with two fingers on them. have had dealers attempt to take my cards before pushing me the pot. I do not let go until the dealer starts to push the pot towards me. Then I let go.

I have never had my cards accidentally mucked.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 02:08PM
One tournament rule that few people seem to be aware of is, If on the river you have the nuts and you are last to act, YOU MUST BET OR RAISE. Now it seems logical that you would bet the nuts on the river as last to act. But it happens. The spirit of the rule is to keep someone from soft playing their friend or someone they have a share of.
The penalty for not betting the nuts on the river as last to act is to sit out one orbit.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 07:08PM
Ken ...
I understand the spirit of the rule, however, how would anyone know the rule was violated if the player with the nutz simply mucked their hand?
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 07:34PM
Must show to collect the pot?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 07:50PM by DrCheckRaise.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 08:34PM
I'm calling clock LOL... The way I keep up with what post I have looked at or not is the time post are made and i'm really messed up now....is that a rule lol
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 08:46PM
If you are logged in you should be able to see if there is a new post because there will be a red number by it in announcements.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 09:02PM
Heres another:

Player is in the big blind but not in his seat when the cards are dealt. Theres no raise before it gets to him, only folds and a few calls.
Are his cards dead or are they still alive until the next round?
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 09:21PM
In tournaments..... if you are not in your seat when the button gets his second card your hand is dead.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 09:21PM
Wanter friend to receive the pot.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 09:30PM
Is it against the rule to muck the nutz at showdown (instead of bet or raise) so friend could receive the pot or for any other reason to cheat?
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 09:37PM
two.
Poor eyesight or stupidity.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 10:13PM
IceGold, The only person that would know is the player holding the cards.... so that would be difficult to enforce. Now, if the player mucking was the last person to make an aggressive act.. (Place a bet that was called) than anyone at the table can request to see that hand. But that is a very very touchy and insulting request.... Tread lightly.

But it is a rule, that if you have the nuts and are last to act on the river, you must place a bet or a raise or you will be penalized by having to sit out one orbit.

TwoxTwo... no idea what you are saying about bad eyesight.
Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
avatar Re: The Rules of Poker Can Hurt You Or Help You In A LIVE Game
July 10, 2012 10:40PM
Re: nuts on the river: what if the player misreads his hand, or doesn't realize he holds the nuts?

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