I'll get it started with my thoughts, but lets here em all! I want to throw out my bad habits or twisted perceptions!

As promised, my twisted Perciptions have been edited from this post. Keep reading the responses for some good advice!

What is working for you? My thoughts here are basic, but are better explained by more technical players in the thread.

Mid Pockets are trouble hands for me, lately I try to flop a set or fold. I like the responses in the thread better.

SCKenny made a good point about ace rag. Play A-2 to A-5 suited to try to hit the flop. Best in position, then you can raise preflop to represent the flop if weakness is shown. Again, unless your read and the table action supports the best hand, be prepared to dump fast and hard with less than 11+ outs on the flop.

There is a one thing to consider, but it is a longshot in multi way pots. If you hit your kicker, and there are no face cards on the board, remember your opponent will have missed 66% of the time. A weak countinuation bet should be reraised to see if your opponents are playing premium face cards.

You can get paid off by weak players who can't dump their overs, but should not invest alot of chips trying. Keep it small and be prepared to raise if the board presents a bluff oppurtunity. Any face cards hits, you are finished with it.

BEST CONSISTANT ADVICE FROM MANY, FIT THE FLOP OR DUMP THESE DUDS!



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2009 12:01AM by jontm.

Another way to think about mid pocket pairs is to endeavor to get it heads-up preflop as you are then the SLIGHT favorite over two high cards, while remaining a 4:1 dog to a higher pair and a 4:1 favorite over a lower pair. If there are more people in the pot, you have to dodge more cards,i.e. you have 99 vs KQ, AJ, and the all time favorite 10 7. Now you are dodging 15 cards that can pair and beat you not even thinking about the possible str8s and flushes that may develop. Heads up there are only 6 cards in the deck that will beat you by pairing up, again leaving out the other hand possibilities. Since you are an 8:1 dog to hit your set, it is hard to get proper pot odds to play a mutiway pot with mid pairs, but if you don't have to improve to win, you don't need those odds.

I dont remember exactly but in Harrington's book he says the place for them depends on your "M", but there are other times when they are unplayable.

Continued

Again if you take them heads up, you are a slight favorite, so short stacked and pushing while you still have enough chips to get people to fold ( and that will depend on your table what amount of chips that is) is the proper move. Otherwise if you want to limp into a mutiway pot and fold if you don't hit, or raise and bet when no one seems to like the flop, you can play them that way.
Ace rag when in late position and first in is okay, otherwise you are looking to not hit the A, but the kicker, and if your kicker is 6, how many people will fold if you bet? Too many people with too many hih cards and someone is bound to hit a higher card. $$$ most times if you hit two pair, as long as another A doesn't pair their (higher) kicker too.
Sometimes I will play any of the hands we are talking about, and sometimes I will fold them all. Just now I played 78 suited calling a raise and folded A9 off the next hand in mid position. I don't always know what I am going to do with a hand till I get it, so I can be sure no one else knows either, lol.

jontm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very well explained Poker1040 and it shows where
> sometimes we get in trouble (like I did last
> night).
>
> While my pocket 5's are made, there aren't many
> playable or even junk hands that don't only need
> to hit once to beat me, leaving me a huge dog to
> suck out for the win.
>
> Your post clearly explains this.
>
> Just reread it and you are really swaying me
> against even playing them for the most part at
> all.
>
> It is clear that the pot odds are almost never
> correct. No arguing with the math.
>
> The only real reason seems to be implied odds.
> With multiple opponents, one may hold enough of a
> hand to pay you off for all the limps with
> interest......the whole ace big pays off your set
> thing
>
> Which brings to mind the thought; should small
> pairs be left to cash game play?
>
> Clearly they are a bad investment over the long
> run in tournement play.
>
> (unless you exploit the board against a single
> opponent)
>
> I think mid pairs may need its own thread. I am
> thinking of getting them out of my playable hands
> right now, doesn't seem to be doing anything good
> as compared to the risk.

When calling to set mine, your not looking at pot odds, only implied odds based off stack sizes, yours and at least one opp in the hand needs to be large enough to give the odds and many times on a very loose passive table, you will have the odds to set mine via pot odds alone due to the limpers. Do not call off more than 10% of your stack to set mine no matter the odds your getting unless you have a low M (5 or 10, depending on how low you are comfortable letting your stack get before going for the flip) and are shoving them.

No, they are not cash game only hands.

They are not a bad investment, set mining with correct odds is one of the best investments there is. They are well disguised, and the easiest hands to play since you either set or you dont, and not playing them when you have set mining odds will be a major leak in your game. Although depending on how small they are, the better the position you want to have since you want to get in as cheap as possible, and you do not want 7 people behind you that could raise you out after limping 22 in EP for example, but OTB there are only the blinds to raise you out which is much less likely to happen with others in the hand. If no others in the hand already I will even raise them and play position, but then again, 22 would be better that many hands I would raise and play in that situation anyway.

There is definatelly some good info here, very good. I am surely not the only one who might ask.....

Can you tell me what "M" is?

There is a response for this in technical/poker math. He was kind enough to message back.

It would be easy to post it here, but the players who are serious about figuring this out will read that area and check in on it from time to time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2009 12:00AM by jontm.

We have come along way in this topic here on DCR. See the tactical section to see how much the mysterious "M" really makes hand selection and options easier and more effective. PkHrGd made a great thread and made it is as easy as it gets to mine this diamond concept out of huge books. If there is one thing you must know in tourney poker and that will give you an advatage at the lower limits its understanding and learning to apply ths! My stress levels on the felts and the "what to do next" have all but disapeared using "m" zones...especially when is right to start pushing instead of calling....more later.