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Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math

Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       January 11, 2009 03:43AM
This we work into slowly and I am not the best person for this. To start I have invited DonkyKong, Poker1040 and Nerice to help explain some basics and percentages. The first thing is basic but gives a basline for decisions and was an explanation by member Nerice:

M is how many orbits you can survive before you blind out. To keep it simple, lets say the default pot from blinds and ante's is 150. Your stack is 1500, 1500/150=10. So M is 10. If the table is short I will subtract 1/2 depending on how short it is since the table is shorter your getting hit with the blinds more often, so need to react to a low M sooner than you would need to at a full table.

There is a Q too, Q deals with your stack related to the average stack size, rather than the blinds/antes that M does. So say the average stack size is 1000, and you have a 1000 chips your Q would be 1. If you had 2000 your Q would be 2, if you had 500 your Q would be .5. While not nearly as important as M, the higher it is the better, but there are situations where I will play something or shove 4/5 times in one orbit due to Q irregardless of M or cards as I will not let it get too low as the lower it goes, the lower the chance of running really deep goes down too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2009 03:45AM by jontm.
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       January 12, 2009 12:32AM
One of the things to remember with M is that the guidelines Harrington gives for proper play with differing Ms is that they are given for tournies with larger starting stacks than the sub. sites typically have, so your M will drop much more quickly unless you get off to a very good start in the first few rounds. Good to be aware of, but not to panic over.
Chip stack vs chip stack when looking for a spot to shove carries more weight here-will calling your all in cripple a caller? While you still have enough chips to do so is the time to be looking for a hand to shove with, even if you have to let your M get lower than is reccommended. This can be based on position, players,etc. not just cards.
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       January 14, 2009 07:55PM
SPR (Stack to Pot Ratio) is another ratio that can be applied in NL Holdem. It is the ratio between the size of the effective stack to the size of the pot ON THE FLOP.

Although this is a ratio that is calculated on the flop, it should be applied to your pre flop decision. The concept is that a lower SPR say between 2 to 5 is good for hands like big pairs, while a high SPR is good for speculative hands like suited connectors. So the idea is to try to position yourself with a favorable SPR based on your starting hand. Most people do this without knowing it. If you have KK with 2000 chips, you want the pot size on the flop to be say 500. If you have a hand like 89s you want the pot to start at around 100.

Putting yourself in these positions on the flop makes your hand easier to play post flop, especially with regards to commitment.

Notice it is the effective stack (the shortest of the stacks involved), not necessarily YOUR stack.
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       February 15, 2009 09:41PM
I am really struggling trying to understand this concept and how to apply it. Lets say you played the 89s and flop a flush draw. You have 2000 chips and the pot size is 100 chips. So, your SPR is 20? And that is good? Why? If your opponent bets 100, you will be getting 2:1 odds that the NEXT card will make your flush (that is 4:1). Does a SPR of 20 mean you can make that (bad IMO) call? Don't you now need to start thinking about what the action will be on the turn? There will be 300 chips in the pot. Your SPR will now be down to just over 6? If the turn does not help you (no pair, no str8 draw), what do you do if your opponent now bets 300 chips? Once again, you are getting 2:1 odds for a 4:1 draw, and only 1 card to come. Don't you now need to start thinking about "implied odds" if you hit your flush? Actually, shouldn't you have thought about "implied odds" before you made the call on the flop? Also, if you miss everything (no pair and no flush) and fold, you will be down to 1600 chips. Now shouldn't you have thought about your M and Q values before you made any calls? (On the flop or turn). As you can see, this "SPR" concept really confuses me! Which poker book is it explained in?
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       February 25, 2009 01:31AM
Yea, the SPR concept is confusing, and my terrible explanation probably made it worse. Here are some things about SPR to try to clear it up.

1. It only pertains to the ratio on the flop.
2. The point of SPR is to make postflop decisions easier
3. Target SPR is the optimal ratio when you get it all in.
4. SPR uses concepts such as commitment and implied odds.
5. SPR can be used to create a favorable situation for you
6. Or an uncomfortable situation for your opponent.
7. SPR and Pot odds are two different ideas, but are not mutually exclusive.
8. SPR concepts apply more to starting hands that make overpairs or top pair.(Ignore what I wrote about a target spr of 20 for 7-8)
9. Target SPRs will help prevent making expensive mistakes.

So I'm going to borrow from your example below and make a couple changes and give three sample hands:

Hand 1.
You have 89s in position and Villain has KK.
The pot is 100 on the flop, where you have a draw and villain has an overpair
You both have 1300 effective in chips. so SPR = 13
Villain bets pot on flop (100) and turn (300).
Pot is 900 and you both have 900 remaining.
On the river, the Villain is in an uncomfortable spot, with one pair and teetering on commitment. Does he bet into you after you just called two pot sized bets? Does he check call a shove? Check fold to a shove? Did you make his draw, slow play 2 pair, or is stealing??? (Notice that the river card is irrelevant to an extent.). It's not so much that a medium SPR of 13 is good for 87, but that it is BAD for KK.


Hand 2 (same setup but I've changed the stack sizes).
You have 89s in position and Villain has KK.
The pot is 100 on the flop, where you have a draw and villain has an overpair
You both have 500 effective in chips. so SPR = 5
Villain bets pot on flop (100) and turn (300).
Pot is 900 and you both have 100 remaining.

So obviously a no brainer for the Villain after the flop. Your decisions are easier because you are in a situation where an all in commitment is straightforward.


Hand 3 (same setup as 1 but the preflop raises were bigger making the pot bigger on the flop).
You have 89s in position and Villain has KK.
The pot is 400 on the flop, where you have a draw and villain has an overpair
You both have 2000 effective in chips. so SPR = 5
Villain bets pot on flop (400) and turn (1200).
Pot is 3600 and you both have 400 remaining.

In this last example the Villain was able to manipulate the pot size through preflop raise sizing to get the pot size to be a good SPR for his starting hand. This is how you would apply target SPR based on your hand. The flip side, and a much more advanced play, is creating bad SPRs for your opponents, so that you can outplay them post flop.


To be honest, this SPR concept really only applies against fairly good players. Like any poker theory, it's wasted on total Donkeys or Calling Stations. It might be a bit much to try to employ on a regular basis, but the theory and concepts behind it one that should be always in the back of your mind; and that is planning your hand out, planning around commitment, and considering implied odds.




PhilGnFla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am really struggling trying to understand this
> concept and how to apply it. Lets say you played
> the 89s and flop a flush draw. You have 2000 chips
> and the pot size is 100 chips. So, your SPR is 20?
> And that is good? Why? If your opponent bets 100,
> you will be getting 2:1 odds that the NEXT card
> will make your flush (that is 4:1). Does a SPR of
> 20 mean you can make that (bad IMO) call? Don't
> you now need to start thinking about what the
> action will be on the turn? There will be 300
> chips in the pot. Your SPR will now be down to
> just over 6? If the turn does not help you (no
> pair, no str8 draw), what do you do if your
> opponent now bets 300 chips? Once again, you are
> getting 2:1 odds for a 4:1 draw, and only 1 card
> to come. Don't you now need to start thinking
> about "implied odds" if you hit your flush?
> Actually, shouldn't you have thought about
> "implied odds" before you made the call on the
> flop? Also, if you miss everything (no pair and no
> flush) and fold, you will be down to 1600 chips.
> Now shouldn't you have thought about your M and Q
> values before you made any calls? (On the flop or
> turn). As you can see, this "SPR" concept really
> confuses me! Which poker book is it explained in?
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       January 16, 2009 11:10AM
poker1040 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the things to remember with M is that the
> guidelines Harrington gives for proper play with
> differing Ms is that they are given for tournies
> with larger starting stacks than the sub. sites
> typically have, so your M will drop much more
> quickly unless you get off to a very good start in
> the first few rounds. Good to be aware of, but not
> to panic over.
> Chip stack vs chip stack when looking for a spot
> to shove carries more weight here-will calling
> your all in cripple a caller? While you still
> have enough chips to do so is the time to be
> looking for a hand to shove with, even if you have
> to let your M get lower than is reccommended. This
> can be based on position, players,etc. not just
> cards.

I agree, and disagree both.

In turbo's your M will be lower, as will everyone else's. There is still a panic point people need to have. Mine personally is in the 2.5-3 range. If for some reason mine has got lower then 2.5 you can be assured I am pushing or calling all in (almost always going to almost triple up or better if calling all in) no matter the situation, cards or opponents at least 98% of the time, probably higher % actually, never looked back and calculated up how often I do it, but it is wayyyyy up there % wise.

Lower than that and doubling up really does no good either, so whats the point in waiting any longer... thats my view anyway. If I have to get lucky, getting lucky by card racking, sucking out, stealing the blinds without getting caught etc... its all still the same, I am getting lucky. Even small stacks can bully the table.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2009 11:12AM by Nerice.
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       January 17, 2009 10:00PM
Nerice touched on a point I failed to highlight -if you are lucky enough to have suited connectors, or close gappers, and at least one caller beside the blinds ahead of you at "get lucky or go home" time, you are assured of a good payoff when you hit as opposed to calling all-in with k9 q8 when others in the pot will have better kickers, so even if you hit top pair, you lose. Pushing and hoping to hit your kicker is not a good pot to be in.
Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
avatar Subject :  Re: Technical Terms and Poker Math
Date:       February 11, 2009 06:43PM
Can the tactic of Nerice be described as the 35% rule?

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