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Please Help!!!

Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 01:57AM
I have never posted on this site yet regarding any issues i have, but now i would like to ask a question and see if anyone can help me.

My problem is this, in almost every tourney i play i go pretty deep 100th out of a field of 5k 63 out of a table of 1500 etc etc, but the problem is my end game. I cant seem to keep the focus i had at the beginning of the tourney after a few hrs play, i will do stupid things like call an all in when i know i'm beat hoping that the 8's i have will hit that miracle 8 on the river, or i have aq and someone with ak puts me all in i just call hoping to win even tho i know its not the right play.

Anyway you probably gathered my question but incase you missed it smiling smiley how do you keep your focus? how do u not get annoyed and the constant raiser to your left, what keeps you in rational thoughts so you dont become a chasing freak. I have no clue how to remedy this but i know its the biggest problem of my game.

I posted on here a bit ago regarding quitting poker and moving on, so i thought i should explain, i was gonna quit as i couldnt take the deep taking outs all the time, but i decided that i really enjoy poker and i want to make it work. I have spent a few years on the game, i know its not much compared to some but i just cant quit it has the hold on me lol.

Anyway any help/advice would be appreciated, god knows i need it.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 02:28AM
It seems you know that your problem is towards the end of the game. But is it really? I remember having a similar issue once myself. This issue frustrated the HELL out of me. It wasn't until a friend sat with me and i played that i realized (through their better judgment) that the issue I had was NOT the end of the game. My own head had made me think that.

My explanation...... Throughout the middle stages of the tournament I found that I was not collecting enough chips and getting bullied around by someone who was (a continual raiser). This made my stack shortish compared to the rest of the field at the later stages. Having that shortish stack meant : a) they could continually raise me out of pots with a less then superior hand b) my frustration continued to build until .... c) I was at the brink of going all in with any poc pair, 2 face cards etc etc...

I suggest for you a different approach .... Try to be one of those with a HUGE stack by collecting as much as humanly possible along the way. You may then find that YOU are able to be a raiser, bully and frustrate someone else into an all in move they pray they hit with.

To the second point of your post :

Keeping focus .... I believe poker should have been called patience. In saying this, if you are at the end stages of a tournament or deep into it with enough chips .... you wont be frustrated, annoyed, tilting and chasing. You will find that people WON'T continually raise that are to your left and if they do .....YOU CAN TRAP THEM as you will have them covered in chips .....put them all in on one of their raises or even half thier chip stack in ...force a decision and bully method back at them and this behavior of theirs will stop.

Again to summarize ...... I think you should clearly look at the middle phase of your tournament play. Playing well in the middle phase makes the end phase of the tournament EASY! Become a little gatherer. That's my 2 cents worth based on my own experience, you may know you better. You may think I am a complete nutter posting this response ..... it is based on MY experience, seriously have a look and make sure it is the end phase of your tourney play that is the issue.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 31, 2009 01:13PM
Re;Daniel "gather chips"--DUH!
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 31, 2009 07:18PM
> Re;Daniel "gather chips"--DUH!


First of all, welcome to the forum.

This forum caters to all levels and styles of players, beginners, intermediate, and advanced alike. So Danielle's advice of gathering chips might be a "DUH" to you, but might be another point of view for a player that employs a 'Survival' style strategy.

Try to keep this in mind on future posts. Again, welcome to the forum NLHEphantom. I look forward to your contribution.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 01, 2009 12:11AM
NLHEphantom Wrote:
> Re;Daniel "gather chips"--DUH!

Hi phantom smiling smiley

Yes gather chips lmao... If you have ever watched a lot of peoples play instead of maybe just your own you would have definitely have the knowledge that there are MANY types of players in the world. Some of the players are very passive and sit back and wait for a hand. They allow their blinds to be continually attacked with a lot of the time the more superior hand, they don't attack blinds themselves, they simply sit back and don't play hands. In other words ... they stay in the tournament ONLY because they play very few hands making the final stages and last phase EXTREMELY HARD!! I think my DUH makes more sense now grinning smiley

Hopefully this gives more insight to what i mean by gather chips. If you like I can summarize again grinning smiley

Get gathering chippies people LOL

Oh!! btw .... thanks for reading my post Phantom and be sure to enlighten me with anything else that may seem DUH or inappropriate or completely stupid..... that did sound VERY STUPID and I appreciate you picking it up LMAO grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 01, 2009 12:12AM
btw it is DANIELLE winking smiley not Daniel, I am far from a man winking smiley
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 02:32AM
That is really a good question. Unfortunately I think you will find that what works for some will not work for others due to the differences in out personalities. Let me try to explain.

You said that you tend to lose focus on the later stages of an event.... (and I think we are talking online here)
We can assume that if you lose focus late, then you are very focused early.....

Now for me I am rarely focused early. As a matter of fact I am trying to distract myself. I will play maybe a cash game on the side, watch a movie on my computer, or answer some e-mails, or post some blogs. For me, and my game if I focus too much too early then I end up out playing myself in an attempt to out play others, and the truth is that all you really want to do is survive the early stages. It really is not important to get chipped up early. You will almost never see the chip leader at the first or second break win the event.

So early I am paying enough attention to stay out of trouble and enough attention to get max value when I flop the nuts, but other than that I am distracting myself someone. Then it seems when I decide to focus solely on the game I have not peaked (my focus) too early.

Now in a Live event, my distraction is watching others for tells and betting habits early in an event.... but I am still staying out of alot of hands because the truth is, in any event, live or online, the early stages are filled with people who will deliver you a bad beat. So I try to stay out of the mix as much as possible. Hell sometimes on SC I will set the express-fold and do laundry until the first break.

I hope this was some help, and please post again if it brings up another question, or even if you think I missed the mark completely. I would be curious to hear what others have to say about this because like I said, I think that the different personalities will have different solutions to the problem that you bring to light.

That you for the question.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 04:47AM
Hey Lee thanks for dropping in. Sounds like the problem you've got is kinda a good one. At least you are going deep in a lot of big field tournaments! I personally don't have the same issue online, probably because I can't even get focused to begin with!. I do have some experience at playing in large events like WSOP and WPT events that can go long hours and even days. I will say that endurance is a real factor. Trying to stay mentally focused after twelve hours of intense concentration is no easy feet for anyone.

I remember after day one of a WSOP event going up to my room and and experienced a fatigue like I've never felt before. Just wiped out. Earlier that evening I was sitting next to Barry Greenstein and I was talking to him about this brain drain issue. He gave me a bit of good advice. He said that no one can be 100% focused playing their A game for this amount of time. The secret is to play at either 100% or at 0%. Meaning when you decide to pay attention or play (whether in a hand or not), give it 100%. Otherwise, shutoff your brain. Live, this is when I put my sunglasses and Ipod on and just tune out. Your brain is like a muscle and you have to rest it.

Think about it like it's a boxing match. Round one you and your opponent come out swinging, both giving it 100%. But between rounds, you opponent sits on the stool, gets water, recollects himself and rests. Meanwhile in between rounds, you shadow box, essentially going through the motions and wasting much needed energy. After a few rounds of this, your opponent will have a big advantage; you will be worn out.

We all do it. You aren't in the hand, but you are still watching the action, but not totally into it. You probably absorb only a small fraction of the information available, but waste valuable gas in your mental tank. Eventually you'll slip up.

The advice from Barry was huge for me. Focus or Tune out, nothing in between. Put another way, In the words of Yoda, "Do, or Do Not; there is no Try."[[/i]/b]

Your friendly neighborhood DonkeyKong smiling smiley
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 07:11PM
thanks guys for your replies, much appreciated and gives me something to look into.

But it has given me another question while reading your posts, it is what i have asked many times and have never got the correct answer i was looking for, i even asked kenny and his response never worked but anyway back to topic.

First of i'll give a backround view to my frustration and why i posted.

Your in the 500 I tourney on spadeclub, u've been using a strategy that normally works for you, u've hit in the money but not as its only points, 163 or something if i remember right. This is where people will go all in which i no to either get more chips or just vent some stress they've built up.

Another situation, your playing at pokerstars, your in a 50 cent tourney and your going well ur 3rd in stack sice with 900 players left out of 5k, 720 is the bubble. You continue playing and hit the bubble so okay u've made atleast some money back.

Now okay maybe that give you a look into the past tourneys i have been in heres the question, blinds and antes are pretty steep and raises are nasty. Because of the antes and blinds you are unable to keep folding. Theres a few guys to your left who raise and raise all day long enjoying the stealing of blinds. I no that i have in the past got frustrated at my chips dropping and dropping and so shoved hoping for that miracle card which would gimme the prospect of being high in chips with q8o and things like j8 etc etc i know its a pretty donk play but if you hit lucky your gonna have a massive chip advantage. Is this a good way to look at it? or is the proper play to bide your time and wait for a hand to pick them off. This is a debate i have had with myself many times and cant figure which is the best strategy.

I also want to ask, your playing in tourneys alot, your making it deep practically every time busting out on the bubble or just near it to lucky donks. This right here is my killer, say you've got a hand like AKo, u play it in good positon but you get some fool that calls you with 45 and takes half your stack and this type of thing happens all the time and mainly near the end of a tourney.

It hits me with its rigged, or your the unluckiest player in the world or just you had a big stack its your turn to lose. These mindsets are really not what i want and know it can be deprimental in poker but my problem is dealing with it and focusing to turn things around.

In the beginning to middle of a tourney my strategy is try not to go all in pre flop no matter what your hand, and it normally works unless i feel courageous and shove with say AA etc but only the top 4 hands i shove with ,but to the end when people go all in with every other hand i make weird all in calls with 57s KQo etc etc and always miss and lose.

I want to thankyou for your replies really imformative, i hope you dont see me as just needed an ego boost or whatever.

This which i am asking for help with is what i have had for a long long time now and its about time i found a solution smiling smiley

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 10:31PM
There are a few other posts that address a lot of the issues you mentioned. If you haven't already, do some reading up on some older posts in the tactical, poker clinic, and hand analysis sections.

Yes it feels like you are the unluckiest person in the world sometimes. I would read Mitch0's post about ways to deal with this.

HAC in this thread talked about building your stack. If you find you are getting eaten up at a particular stage in a tournament, it often means you are not optimizing in a stage prior to that stage. For example, always getting stuck near the bubble, you should change your game prior to that stage. Initially there will be some big swings. You will probably bust out early more often, but go deeper more than you were too. It's a trade off. The idea is to build your stack so that you aren't risking your whole tournament with AK vs 45.

I definitely also check out PkrGd's post on M theory in the tactical section. This is key to understanding when to shift gears based on your stack, blinds, and antes.

I've also posted some things about ICM and where folding, even as an equity favorite can sometimes be correct in a tournament setting.

There are two schools of thought on tournament strategies. Survival and Accumulation. In any given tournament both are needed at different times. It's not an exact science and takes a lot of table feel. Me guess is that you are playing too much of Survival Poker and should try a more Accumulation Strategy.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 28, 2009 11:18PM
I just wanted to add another thing as I am playing in this Full Tilt free roll regarding M.

So i have about 16K in chips and blinds are 200/400 with a 50 ante. 9 handed.

So a lot of people look at how many big blinds they have. Somewhere, sometime ago it was common practice to say, "if I have more than 10 BB im in ok shape. So I have 40 big blinds so I should be comfortable. But the reality is that if you use M, or stack/total cost per round, then you get a different picture. Each round costs you 1050, giving me an M or 15, or the 'Yellow' zone. So I am attacking blinds aggressively. Stacks with 8K are playing too tight, thinking they have 20 big blinds.

So when you get to the latter stages where the antes are a factor, don't count how many BB you have, but the total cost of the round. You might be surprised at how much earlier you need to make moves.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 29, 2009 02:32AM
Hey guys I appreciate the post Lee I too find the later stages online I tend to tighten up and find big stacks kill me(especially Final tbl).
I am fairly aggresive and can switch gears easily but it is the big blinds on SC that tend to throw a wrench in my business. My strategy to be patient and allow the game to come to me seems a good one .But..
a lot of times I go card dead and have to push what is the suggestion for times for when the blinds are say ten per cent of your stack and cards and less than desirable.
Knowing the tendency of the SC players cold call or be calling stations,does all in moves predicate the move to force smaller stacks to make a decision?
All the best,

A man's TRUE feelings come out in a poker game!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 02:34AM by DennisWright.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 04:11PM
Hey again

After the OFC 1k freeroll i was pretty annoyed at my end game yet again, i was wondering if you could give your insight as to how i played and how you would have played these to following hands which crippled then busted me out.

I'm sitting at the table with a nice chunk of chips, i was third at some point then got over taken, i get dealt q8 i call as does the guy in the SB everyone else mucks. Flop comes JJJ i check he checks behind me turn comes a q what sweet i just made a fullhouse, guy in SB goes all in i call he turns over his cards and has AA, i now have a quarter of my chips left ouch.

Next hand was pretty much my fault but lets see what you think

I am dealt Q9d i call same guy as before calls aswell as one more, the flop comes 8 5 9 rainbow, i give it a bet having top pair, the third guy who called goes all in, i have noticed hes only playing premium hands and spent the last half an hr just folding, i reckon he has AK AQ or the likes, i decide to call putting my tourney on the line to the hopes he misses, the other guy calls cards are turned over third guy has AK the other guy has AQ, i'm like aww crap what a lame call, turn comes j i was thinking well maybe i coulda made the right play, river comes a king and bamm good bye tourney.

Would you of played the same way as i did or done something differently i'm intrigued to find out what you guys think.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 04:43PM
Dude, those are some strange hands. You must have been at a nitty table to be able to limp in with those hands while people with AA, AK and AQ don't raise preflop. Weird. I would say don't even bother playing those hands, but if no one is raising preflop even with big hands, then limp away. Just don't overvalue it when you hit one pair or some other small piece.

Lee, gonna need more information on the hands, like position, stack sizes and bet sizes and images. But without this info, hand one i call, hand 2 I fold.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2009 04:43PM by DonkeyKong.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 05:03PM
Heres the two hands i was talking about,

Full Tilt Poker Game #11383824351: OFC $1,000 Freeroll (85124228), Table 304 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:30:58 ET - 2009/03/28
Seat 1: qweqwes (20,573)
Seat 2: Lee785 (28,114)
Seat 3: semirami2 (10,657)
Seat 4: mustangmike68 (13,686)
Seat 5: LarryBoil (26,758)
Seat 6: tubas45slp (5,056)
Seat 7: angiedubs (33,569)
Seat 8: RoyalRendy77 (38,971)
Seat 9: jrosekcs (8,430)
qweqwes antes 75
Lee785 antes 75
semirami2 antes 75
mustangmike68 antes 75
LarryBoil antes 75
tubas45slp antes 75
angiedubs antes 75
RoyalRendy77 antes 75
jrosekcs antes 75
mustangmike68 posts the small blind of 300
LarryBoil posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lee785 [Qh 8h]
tubas45slp folds
angiedubs folds
RoyalRendy77 folds
jrosekcs folds
qweqwes calls 600
Lee785 calls 600
semirami2 calls 600
mustangmike68 folds
LarryBoil checks
*** FLOP *** [Js Jh Jd]
LarryBoil checks
qweqwes checks
Lee785 checks
semirami2 checks
*** TURN *** [Js Jh Jd] [Qd]
LarryBoil checks
RoyalRendy77: nice flopp
qweqwes bets 600
Lee785 calls 600
semirami2 folds
LarryBoil folds
*** RIVER *** [Js Jh Jd Qd] [3h]
qweqwes bets 19,298, and is all in
Lee785 calls 19,298
*** SHOW DOWN ***
qweqwes shows [Ad Ac] a full house, Jacks full of Aces
Lee785 mucks
qweqwes wins the pot (43,171) with a full house, Jacks full of Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 43,171 | Rake 0
Board: [Js Jh Jd Qd 3h]
Seat 1: qweqwes showed [Ad Ac] and won (43,171) with a full house, Jacks full of Aces
Seat 2: Lee785 mucked [Qh 8h] - a full house, Jacks full of Queens
Seat 3: semirami2 (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: mustangmike68 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: LarryBoil (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: tubas45slp folded before the Flop
Seat 7: angiedubs folded before the Flop
Seat 8: RoyalRendy77 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: jrosekcs folded before the Flop

Thats the one that hurt lol

And this one which i think was bad play on my part

Full Tilt Poker Game #11383917303: OFC $1,000 Freeroll (85124228), Table 304 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:36:33 ET - 2009/03/28
Seat 1: qweqwes (41,946)
Seat 2: Lee785 (9,416)
Seat 3: semirami2 (21,489)
Seat 4: mustangmike68 (12,886)
Seat 5: LarryBoil (24,758)
Seat 6: tubas45slp (12,912)
Seat 7: angiedubs (32,169)
Seat 8: RoyalRendy77 (14,978)
Seat 9: jrosekcs (15,260)
qweqwes antes 100
Lee785 antes 100
semirami2 antes 100
mustangmike68 antes 100
LarryBoil antes 100
tubas45slp antes 100
angiedubs antes 100
RoyalRendy77 antes 100
jrosekcs antes 100
qweqwes posts the small blind of 400
Lee785 posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lee785 [Qd 9d]
semirami2 folds
mustangmike68 folds
LarryBoil folds
tubas45slp raises to 3,700
angiedubs folds
RoyalRendy77 folds
jrosekcs folds
qweqwes calls 3,300
Lee785 calls 2,900
*** FLOP *** [9c 6d 5h]
qweqwes checks
Lee785 checks
tubas45slp bets 9,112, and is all in
qweqwes calls 9,112
Lee785 calls 5,616, and is all in
tubas45slp shows [Ad Kh]
qweqwes shows [Jh As]
Lee785 shows [Qd 9d]
*** TURN *** [9c 6d 5h] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [9c 6d 5h 4h] [Ks]
tubas45slp shows a pair of Kings
qweqwes shows Ace King high
tubas45slp wins the side pot (6,992) with a pair of Kings
Lee785 shows a pair of Nines
tubas45slp wins the main pot (28,848) with a pair of Kings
Lee785 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 35,840 Main pot 28,848. Side pot 6,992. | Rake 0
Board: [9c 6d 5h 4h Ks]
Seat 1: qweqwes (small blind) showed [Jh As] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 2: Lee785 (big blind) showed [Qd 9d] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 3: semirami2 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: mustangmike68 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: LarryBoil folded before the Flop
Seat 6: tubas45slp showed [Ad Kh] and won (35,840) with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: angiedubs folded before the Flop
Seat 8: RoyalRendy77 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: jrosekcs (button) folded before the Flop
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 05:35PM
I was just going to check to see if you had the hand history. Sweet.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 31, 2009 07:25PM
I went ahead and converted your hand history for easier viewing.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 300/600 Blinds 75 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from

saw flop | saw showdown

MP3 (t20573)
Hero (CO) (t28114)
Button (t10657)
SB (t13686)
BB (t26758)
UTG (t5056)
UTG+1 (t33569)
MP1 (t38971)
MP2 (t8430)

Hero's M: 17.85

Preflop: Hero is CO with,
4 folds, MP3 calls t600, Hero calls t600, Button calls t600, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t3375),,(4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: (t3375)(4 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets t600, Hero calls t600, 2 folds

River: (t4575)(2 players)
MP3 bets t19298 (All-In), Hero calls t19298

Total pot: t43171

MP3 had,(full house, Jacks over Aces).
Hero had,(full house, Jacks over Queens).
Outcome: MP3 won t43171
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 31, 2009 07:28PM

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 100 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from

saw flop | saw showdown

SB (t41946)
Hero (Bcool smiley (t9416)
UTG (t21489)
UTG+1 (t12886)
MP1 (t24758)
MP2 (t12912)
MP3 (t32169)
CO (t14978)
Button (t15260)

Hero's M: 4.48

Preflop: Hero is BB with,
3 folds, MP2 bets t3700, 3 folds, SB calls t3300, Hero calls t2900

Flop: (t12000),,(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets t9112 (All-In), SB calls t9112, Hero calls t5616 (All-In)

Turn: (t35840)(3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t35840)(3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t35840

SB had,(high card, Ace).
Hero had,(one pair, nines).
MP2 had,(one pair, Kings).
Outcome: MP2 won t35840
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 05:52PM
Well Lee. Thanks for posting the hand histories. So much clearer now.

Hand #1. You gotta fold this hand on the river. Calling 19,000 into a pot of like 3,400 is just too crazy. There are enough hands that beat you, and there is a good chance you are calling for a chop which is a big mistake. And the board is so hit or miss. There is a big difference between having the 5th nuts on a board like this vs than having it with 2 pair on a ragged board. Your full house is now just a bluff catcher. Secondly, you have a great chipstack even if you fold. You'll still be Yellow zone M. You've got to give up a some of your small equity or small +EV spots in tournaments to protect your stack, so that you can pressure other stacks later, in order to go deep into the tournament.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 06:05PM
Thanks for the reply DK i thought the same.

But the problem is when all those chips are in the middle i start talking myself into why it would be a good call even tho i know for sure its a no doubt fold.

Things like if he hasnt K's or A's i'm laughing with 40+k chips or if i hit another card which is not impossible i'm in great shape.

These are things i've gotta work on, and i'm doing it now.

Thanks for all your posts its been more than helpful i can allready see improvements on my game and am working to make it stronger.

Thnx again

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 06:06PM
400/800 Ante 100
Seat 2: Lee785 (9,416)
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lee785 [Qd 9d]
tubas45slp raises to 3,700
qweqwes calls 3,300
Lee785 calls 2,900

Hand #2. I think you know this one, but I don't think you should call off 1/3 of your chips with Q9 against a mid position raiser, especially when you only have 9,500 in chips. You are in the red zone in terms of M. Shove or fold time. You really can't afford to play "call and see a flop" poker. If you miss, you can't bluff at it, and if you fold on the flop your tournament is close to over with only 6000 in chips left. If you hit it, there is a good chance it is still no good, especially vs two players.

Shoving probably won't do anything especially with the qweqwe hitchhiking in the pot. With the addition of the third player, it's gonna be impossible to win it preflop with a reraise. You don't have enough chips to run a squeeze on tubas45.

Folding preflop is the best option.

Post flop it doesn't matter. You can check/call or lead out. Given your stack to pot ratio, it's not gonna matter, the results will be the same.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2009 06:07PM by DonkeyKong.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 30, 2009 11:21PM
I forgot to mention, regardless of if the 9 comes on the flop or not, leading out on the flop, if you are going to call anyway, is the best play. Calling the raise from the big blind preflop, you could setup a stop and go play, going all in regardless of the flop. This is the only way I would call preflop from this spot. The 9 on the flop is an added bonus, but consider shoving all in on any non ace board.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       March 31, 2009 07:47PM
Isnt shoving at this point a bad idea DK, i mean u call flop comes and you shove as we saw before the 2 guys were going to go all in anyway, and i doubt they'd of folded AK or AQ due the fact of there earlier play. I woulda gone out anyway. In these kinds of instances i like to see a flop and hope to flop the nuts it didnt happen i knew i shoulda folded at that point but my head told me to call because of my low chips.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 01, 2009 06:49PM
Just an update, i played in a SC 20 dollar tourney last night, and placed 7th, this is only due to a bad play again, i know what i shoulda done but for some reason i didnt do it. I had A9, the one other person had an A2 flop comes A108 i check he bets about a third of the pot, i call thinking he has a low kicker something like A4 A3 etc, turn comes a jack he bets again i still think i have the best hand so i call. My mistake here was calling on turn i shoulda went all in or even on the flop. Anyway my 7th place is my best so far, your prolly thinking pfft i do it all the time, but with it being my first it made me get some confidence back.

Thankyou again my improvements are starting its still early but atleast i have seen if i play my game i can hit the final table.

Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 01, 2009 11:34PM
Congrats on a great finish.

Regarding the earlier post, yes, they might still be calling with AK or AQ on the flop, but the idea is that IF you are planning on going all in on this hand regardless (which given your stack it's all in or fold), they are calling your preflop all in 100% of the time, while calling the all in on the flop after they miss it maybe 80% of the time, and maybe only 1 of the two of them are calling after the flop. We can't take into account the actual result of what cards came out on the turn and river because the decision is made before that time. I hope that makes some sense.
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 01, 2009 11:43PM
Have a read of this older post

It's somehow been rearranged and merged with other posts but there are some good nuggets of information in there. It's a oldie but a goody!
Re: Please Help!!!
avatar Subject :  Re: Please Help!!!
Date:       April 04, 2009 10:41PM
First of all, thanks for your post Lee. many of us find the end game not so easy.As far as focus goes, we all lose it from time to time. For me I always try to remember that it's the war we want to win, not the battle. we have all made those mistakes calling when we know we are beat. All of the advice here is good. there is not one way to deal with it.

Chipping up in mid tourney is solid. Tuning in 100% or tuning out is also valuable. Tourny play is grueling and when it comes bubble time there are all types of thinking. Some just are happy to have made it and shove to get it over with. Some are using thier stack to push others out. Some have lost focus and don't know what they are doing.

At that end game if you can determine what the other players goal is it will help you make better choices.
I used to always get blinded out and lose focus at the end and make rookie errors. I can now fight through it as I know there is always another hand.
Don't give up.

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