Im not try hurt your site or banners DrCheck raise.You are very good guy. And help alot people.And have nice forum and you deserve anything you get. And i hope you prosper. Im not try hurt your business. But i feel tiem has come to tell people what ive seen online poker.

AS most you know lot us have been through wringer Online.No payments late bad checks .Sites closing.

But poker sites are gettign far worse in methods of way they rip you off. No matter what i do on some sites. My monster hand always gets ripped off by one outers.Som sites are worse. But ive played millions of hands recorded them. The number do not lie.
What ive found is very disturbing. FLushes hit ungodly rate. And big stacks are feed and given hands. Poker tracker and office does not track this. But soon they can. You will soo see what goes on.

And the 10 card premium hands.Or pocket pairs have been targeted By corrupt programers bent on greed.

With help of soem these so called pros. You try rip off poker community. Ive meet like lot people.And truly feel sorry for what i see every night. Best hand gets ripped of time and time again. This is a far worse level of corruption. And one nothign can be done about.

Online poker is doomed to lose alot customers.Its gotten worse and worse. Now i play dumb hands and win them better than my big hands.

And pokerstars is one the worst.Like most sites they keep you winning when first join. Then whammy it to you.

People need to stand up and demand better. And the amount cheating goign on by players alone these sites makes it hard enough.

Its infested with cheaters on player side. And sad part even sites sides.Ub and absoulte proved this. Which i myself seen way prior.And posted on every forum .But had most my posts erased. Seems the truth is hidden alot for banners.

I wish all you best luck .And use Drcheckraise site banners and tell people.He truly is good guy. And paly within your limits. keep it low and free or small. But in the end. Try play more live. And spend more time your familys and Good Lord for Jesus is the true way. I hope you all Find him. Its the true riches of life. Im a player just like you all. But what i see and have seen online is truly disturbing. And im really sick of it. Pokerstars has some decent double nothing.

But in tournament play the big stacks are feed hands. This makes you power hands almost nothing.. I truly cant play there anymore .At least at Fsg you could have better game. Soem same thigns happen.But more chips helped make game more realistic. Im really feed up poekrstars and palces liek them. They are programed so bad. its becoming useless to play.After you cash out alot .Its all built in the program. To target you. Someone has to win tho. Most time it isnt you even tho you had better hand.

I haven't found PokerStars to be that way at all. The beauty of it is that you can experiment and find out which games you are good at, and you can almost always find a suitable game going on. That's not true at a lot of sites because of a lack of traffic.

I have found that most multi-table tournaments will be a crap shoot no matter where you play, at least at the freeroll, micro, and low-limit games a lot of people play. I personally like the sit-and-go games there, and I have had a nice run in the turbo double-or-nothing ones. I like to build my bankroll up and then take shots are the bigger games. If I lose, I drop back down again, and try not to put more than 5% of my bankroll at risk at any one time, similar to what Chris Ferguson did in going from $0 to $10K+.

And "beginners luck" happens. I've seen it in all kinds of activities, not just poker. How else can an 18-year-old buy their first $5 quick-pick lottery ticket and win millions? It happened to a young lady in Georgia several years ago.

I'm sure your frustrated, it sure sounds like it. Take some time away from the tables and regroup. If you don't trust online poker, stick to live. They make hundreds of millions of dollars on the big sites, you actually think they want your micro limit rake? I run good and bad, mostly because my play is erratic. I hit/miss draws but when I observe my play I have plenty of leaks. It's amazing that you can come to the conclusion it's rigged based on your aces getting cracked. Posts like these make you look foolish. You can say what you want....but telling me that you're monsters aren't holding up along with some sort of religious nonsense....good luck with all that.

from what ive seen here it also sounds like you trust a little too much in the poker software you also use while playing. these are great guides, but not a sure fire chance of winning. theres nothing that can beat natural ability. i say use your time online to learn more about your game without using a crutch like an online poker software tool. also, if you have a big hand and you dont protect it you may be asking for something like that. keep in mind the other players mindframes as well as well as the texture of the board. did the person that cracked you have the right pot odds to call you no matter what he had? did you have bad beats before this and mabey were on tilt? im not trying to give you a poker lesson because you may already know this, but ive seen you post on other sites like the fulltilt blog about similar situations, but yet you keep on playing. remember to always play in the right mindframe as well. never EVER start playing in a bad frame of mind trying to get what you lost back.....EVER. again, not trying to come down on you. just do yourself a favor..... take a step back and look at your play and most important play the player not the game.

Great observation. Look in the mirror, then look again.

Online poker is programed? by 50-100 programers a site.

Im a winning player.I disnt post this after loses. I posted it cause its same way as most sites today.

I could lose 20k tonight and still be up on online poker.Im not blind to what i see.

Ive seen way to much.First thing is to blame someone that posts how rigged sites are. Doesnt mean there a losing player. I based this what iseen happen to others more than myself.

In fact i make more money knowing how the sites rig or program it. I avoid certain things. Its completey a joke

Certain stack ratios are given or favored hands. And certain card sets are targeted more.Avoid those. And profit.

Its clearly not random. But not not rigged in way some think. BUt then you have site shills .And then players collaborating. This is infested on all sites. People cheating. And sites as well. Thats what makes it worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2009 05:52PM by supershill.

Goto your beloved Pokerstars. Goto double or nothing tables. 1.20 cent.

Sit there play 100 a thousand. or just watch. Be better if you play.Play real tight.

Watch how you or whoever gets a stack ratio is feed.

Same thing on holdem

And then the smae thing on every tourney not just sit goes.

People arent being truthful.

Sorry, supershill, but I don't understand what you are saying. My bad, I guess.

All im saying something is bad off on many sites. Im not saying its riged where no one can win. Im saying and have data prove it. Millions of hands. Sites are feeding larger stack ratios.

Now if a person has better hand.He should win on a certain percentage. A larger percent.

Instead sites are using large stacks to finish off smaller quicker.

The are by programers manipulate deals. To favor stack ratios. And target 10 card pocket pair system.

Now this can be seen over extened period of time. Espically in tournament play.

Now for people Like dr check raise. hes very kind nice person.seems very honest compared to sleeze balls i dealt with in past .

He helps people with freerolls and try make little extra.And then helps him; Most sites give you nothing.

So if i was anyone i would use this guys banners.

Gambling is a r isk no matter noone is guaranted anything. But Todays enviroment has grown Greedy.The sites i mean.

The will do anything. Absoulte and Ultimate bet was caught. And im here tell first hand expereince. There is many more.

The deals arent random. They give illusion of preflop random.But then flop what is needed to certain stack ratios on a percentage. Dont forget percentage doesnt mean everytime.

I wish any of you good luck, but true real poker isnt being played.

I find it hard to believe they risk their billions of dollars over small percentages.

aggreed, 2 much risk

omg risk??? risk it to who?? the kankakee gaming commision?? yea right there is a reputible commision, after the ub scandle the gaming commision did nothing they had the names and accounts of all involved and not charge was filed, know y, because ub and a handfull of pros were in on it, these pokersites are not NOT goverend by anyone, and for u that say y would they waste there time going after small stakes, let me ask you if a brinks truck flipped over and 5 million dollars and 83 cents dropped out and u knew u could grab it and not get caught would you only grab the 5 mill and leave the 83 cents no way YOU GRAB IT ALL every penny there, think about it even at 10-20 cents games say 75 hands delt an hour times say 30 tables running in a 24 hour period that could add up and since there not risking anything y not go after the small games too, dont kid yourself online poker is rigged and rigged badly, and other than not playing there is nothing any of us can do,

Pokerstars is not concerned with a few pennies on one hand, they want all of the money. What they are doing is simple, The sofware is programmed to keep the money in play, where it is raked over and over again.... They do this by targeting good starting hands to loose and by creating set up hands. for example if you have been winning a few hands, you are on the hit list, you will be dealt KK and find your self up against AA. If you are in a forced blind and flop two pairs you will loose to a longshot draw like a two outer. Pokerstars does not want any player to win consistantly and cash out. they want the chips to stay in play where they can rake it over and over till it is gone..... Run your own stats . You will find that big draws like 8 outs or more will hit less than 50 percent of expectation. good players will put money in the pot when they think they have a positive expectation....what actually happens is the opposite those draws hit so seldom that they are not profitable. and you will loose made hands to suckouts where a player will call with out pot odds.

As for the teams or cheaters, there are lots of them, the bad ones are easy to spot, if you report them pokerstars will bann them. the good teams are just "team calling" they collectivly have oods to beat your made hand....

if you have cash at pokerstars enjoy it while it lasts.... you will not cash out with any...

Such a shame to have such a great game be so corrupt

RoundDog

What poker sites have you played on and under what names? Just curious.

You can sleep when you're dead!

Here is a section of an article in poker news:

Quote
pokernews
"some may find it relevant to note that at PokerStars the randomizing program is run prior to the hand being dealt, but not afterwards. That is to say, once randomized, the order of the "deck" (or "virtual stub" is not changed throughout the rest of a hand. Thus conclusions drawn by researchers about what would have happened had a given player not folded his or her hand are valid, since -- like in a brick-and-mortar poker room -- the cards that were subsequently dealt were the same whether that player had stayed in or not. Such could not have been concluded quite as confidently on sites where the randomizing program continues to run throughout the hand, and certain variables -- including player mouse movements and events timing -- help form the vast compilation of data used to affect the randomizing process. "

Read the whole article here

DK

It goes like this.....unless you flop they nuts......Your hand can loose.....thats the way it is....and how its always gonna be....Sounds to me like someone dont know how to fold thier KK when its beat and hold on to AK fter missing the flop and the turn.I dont care if you have 6 kings after the flop lol.....Your gonna take some bad beats...I take at least 5-10 a tourney.

sounds to me that u dont know wht your talking about, yes badbeats happen every player excepts that, but, its the timing and freq that makes people lose there mind, online poker is like watching a poker highlight reel, only bad beats, in my own case i took so many beats i started keeping track and the numbers were staggering i ran them 4 times saying to myself no way this is not possible, over an 8 month period playing a min of 5 tournys a day at least 5 days a week, BEST HAND AT ANY ALL IN 96% TIMES IT LOST 98% THATS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO REAL, all you have to do is pay attention, keep an open mind, how many royals in a row would you need to see before u said hey something aint right here

Two things:

1. If it happened, it's real. Deal with it─there are no ghosts in the machine.

2. Stop going all-in.

ub_cheats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sounds to me that u dont know wht your talking
> about, yes badbeats happen every player excepts
> that, but, its the timing and freq that makes
> people lose there mind, online poker is like
> watching a poker highlight reel, only bad beats,
> in my own case i took so many beats i started
> keeping track and the numbers were staggering i
> ran them 4 times saying to myself no way this is
> not possible, over an 8 month period playing
> a min of 5 tournys a day at least 5 days a week,
> BEST HAND AT ANY ALL IN 96% TIMES IT LOST
> 98% THATS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO REAL, all you
> have to do is pay attention, keep an open mind,
> how many royals in a row would you need to see
> before u said hey something aint right here

Learn the game, then reply back with something worthwhile.....The comments relevant to this discussion are not about loosing a single hand, all poker players know you can loose any hand unless you flop the absolute nuts. This discussion is about a stacked deck where the cards are not random and the software is design to cheat the players by keeping he money in play so they can rake it over and over....

Im leaning towards you supershill. Won a small omaha tourney then started tearing it up on sit and gos. Now I cant hit anything - can even sniff 3rd let alone 5th. Played 7 sit and gos. Two times in a row I was knocked out with 3 cards matching between us. I was ahead on the flop and lost both times high and low. The other players had like a 7 to my 8 and a 6 to my 9. Both miracle rivers to take high and low. Had AA4J - called this one smaller stack for the knock out and of course another guy goes all in with his A. Small stack get trip Qs and other guy gets the low. Very suspicious.

Somebody is gonna win and somebody is gonna lose. If you are a chronic loser, you may need to go beyond the math and the probabilities to figure out what may be amiss with your playing style on a particular site. Different sites have different player profiles.

Also, as a recent study concluded, the more hands you win, the more money you lose, especially at the lower limits.

Another study (sponsored by PokerStars), concluded that, overall, the "best hand" on the flop only wins about 25% of the time.

The probabilities are theoretical; a poker game is for real. However, the cards dealt are probably a lot more random than most people give credit for.

Also, as a recent study concluded, the more hands you win, the more money you lose, especially at the lower limits.

This study is obviously flawed or you didn't properly interpret it because it means you would have maximum profitability by winning zero hands which we all know isn't the case.

donkeypoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, as a recent study concluded, the more hands
> you win, the more money you lose, especially at
> the lower limits.
>
> This study is obviously flawed or you didn't
> properly interpret it because it means you would
> have maximum profitability by winning zero hands
> which we all know isn't the case.

Actually, the study, nor I, never reached that conclusion [update: i.e., your straw man proposition]. You can read it in Axman's Corner here in the Forum.

But now that I think about it, some people may actually maximize their profitability by PLAYING zero hands, LOL, if you catch my drift.

I think the proper conclusion is that you indeed may win more money by playing FEWER hands. Your experience may vary.

Update:
Here is the abstract from the study:

Abstract Poker is a competitive, social game of skill and luck, which presents players with numerous challenging strategic and interpersonal decisions. The adaptation of poker into a game played over the internet provides the unprecedented opportunity to quantitatively analyze extremely large numbers of hands and players. This paper analyzes roughly twenty-seven million hands played online in small-stakes, medium-stakes and high-stakes games. Using PokerTracker software, statistics are generated to (a) gauge the types of strategies utilized by players (i.e. the ‘strategic demography’) at each level and (b) examine the various payoffs associated with different strategies at varying levels of play. The results show that competitive edges attenuate as one moves up levels, and tight-aggressive strategies––which tend to be the most remunerative––become more prevalent. Further, payoffs for different combinations of cards, varies between levels, showing how strategic payoffs are derived from competitive interactions. Smaller-stakes players also have more difficulty appropriately weighting incentive structures with frequent small gains and occasional large losses. Consequently, the relationship between winning a large proportion of hands and profitability is negative, and is strongest in small-stakes games. These variations reveal a meta-game of rationality and psychology which underlies the card game. Adopting risk-neutrality to maximize expected value, aggression and appropriate mental accounting, are cognitive burdens on players, and underpin the rationality work––reconfiguring of personal preferences and goals––players engage in to be competitive, and maximize their winning and profit chances (emphasis added).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2011 04:08PM by Axman.

Hello all,

I do not have any proof if online poker is rigged or not, and I have to say it does not bother me at all, because I have already made a decent money by playing poker online.
I do not use any online cheats, random generators or other nonsense. I simply learnt the proper strategy to beat the others.
I play just Heads-up Sit'n'gos, which are one of the most profitable poker games. Many people still do not know the strategy for Heads up and I take full advantage of it.
I made nearly $8000 on online poker so far so I took many many bad beats as well. Look at this:
I had TT, flop came TTA,somehow we went all-in, he showed AJ, turn came A, river came A.
Yeah it happened to me. So what I did next?
Nothing, I just won another 3 Heads-up games in row against this guy. Actually I sometimes won 10 Heads-up games in a row.

Have you ever thought that your poker strategy and knowledge could be the reason, why you lose money in poker instead of blaming that online poker is rigged?

How many of you check your opponent's hand in "replay mode" when he check on river and muck on showdown? Do you ask why?
Imagine that you won a pot on showdown with just a pair of deuces and your opponent muck his hand, although he bet on turn and check on river. You check his hand on replay and he has 45 missed draw. What does it tell you about your opponent? HE DOES NOT BLUFF ON THE RIVER WITH LOW CARDS AND MISSED DRAW. This is valuable information, so whenever he bets on the river he has a decent hand. If he had not bluff with 5 high, he probably would not bluff with anything on the river.
So ask yourself now? Do you chceck your opponent's mucked hands every time? If not, stop talk that online poker is rigged and start to do that. This is a must...

This was just 1 of 100 key points that poker player have to master before he can win money regurarly.
I could teach anyone, how to make money by online poker at www.headsuppokercoach.com

You can check my stats and graphs there as well.
My advice is, spend some time to learn how to beat the game and you will not need to spam forums that pokerstars is rigged.

Good luck.

I'm a losin player but i like 2 play.If 4 1 second i thought pokerstars was rigged(which i definately don't)i'd just move sites.So why do all these dumb bast**ds who claim its rigged go back time & time again.Do these people buy clothes,house items,cars etc from on line sites that rip them off evry time they go then go bk the next wk?Get a grip,learn tiddly winks or summet

One situation that seems to always have a predetermined outcome from what I've seen is:

After 2 bigger stacks on the table do a preflop all in and the bigger of the two lose. Loser of that pot still has half the table covered and immediately shoves on next hand with whatever. Other smaller stacks call and lose all out. Since I've seen this happen so many times I'll push when I'm loser of that situation. Much more than half of the time I almost get myself back what I lost hand previous. I do not have anywhere near the number of hands as some posters do but this has been working for me.

I can't believe the frequency of 2outers on the river I've been seing on this site lately.I get deep near big money with big pocket pairs vs.opponent's sm pp,all chips go in-I have the other player completely dominated....and of course,bam!he rivers his 2 outer.Over & over & over again.Not just to me either.It's like they know it's coming,so you see alot of open shoving and calling w/any pocket pairs.Yes,I understand that odds dictate that they'll hit sometimes-but it's like 50%.Something is not right here.

>I can't believe the frequency of 2outers on the river I've been seing on this site lately.I get deep near big money with big pocket pairs vs.opponent's sm pp,all chips go in-I have the other player completely dominated....and of course,bam!he rivers his 2 outer.Over & over & over again.Not just to me either.It's like they know it's coming,so you see alot of open shoving and calling w/any pocket pairs.Yes,I understand that odds dictate that they'll hit sometimes-but it's like 50%.Something is not right here.>

I've had similar experiences. It could be variance but it happens with such consistency that it seems a bit fishy. For MTTs 2011 to date while all in pre, flop, or turn I have an expected +494 BB on 238 hands, you may think that I'm very lucky because the fact is I am +656 BB, but that doesn't tell the whole story my net $ expected is $410,000 while my actual $ won is $111,000, because I'm getting sucked out on big hands with unusual frequency. I would guess that on these big hands I lose to 2-8 outers on the river about between 30-40% of the time. I'm not saying that PS is rigged but this pattern i find very odd and it does make me wonder. Hmmmmmmmmmm

pokerstars is a joke. The program is so offset to give players coming from behind their outs it's pathetic and happens time after time . I have taken over 100 plus situations where my hands were the absolute best and bet accordingly in these situations,and given that # I came out ahead in less than 10% after going into the turn/river cards???.9/10 I lost after being ahead ? Similarly on the everest site or wpt poker site given the sam situation and # of hands I came out the favourite in excess of 30-35% of these times.Hmmmm that number seems quite a bit off for river stars to be dealing a fair deck of cards to me. I will say if you play/win there you are a better player than I could ever be,because the only thing i've won there in a decade minus the first 2 years I played is frustration and repeated trips to the bank. If you want to cash out and win tourneys on a semi-regular basis ,don't even bother downloading their software.Save yourself the endless misery of bad beat after bad beat. Being drawn out on by perfect ,perfect turn ,river shots.Hands that seem to materialize right before your eyes , and the sad thing is you know it's coming every single time theres no guesswork involved .Whereas on other sites you feel confident and secure your hands should hold up,as the odd's are on your side and you should triumph more than you lose.Right? Not on river stars,you hold kings buddy shows pok 3's and rivers you.You hol;d aces buddy has pok 2's and flops it,or the dreaded you flop a straight and buddy goes runner ,runner and rivers a straight,the list goes on,and,on,and on! after you flop the nut flush only to see the turn card brought about an inside straight flush draw ,then blinked only to find the one card in the deck you knew was coming does show up and your tourney is done. You were defeated by an inside straight flush which the odds were so stacked against showing up you would win the bad beat jackpot twice before you ever saw this hand again. I have played online for more than a decade now at various sites. Throughout this time I have won my share of multi-player tourneys,some even at poker stars. Most were the lower buy-in range between 2-8$.I found whenever I went to a higher range ,and the prize pool became larger,my chance of getting to the final table diminished massively.The prize pools look so favourable,yet no matter how many times I play I can't seem to get to the end.
As an example i'll use the 50k guaranteed as an illustration. I played in this nightly tourney almost 700 times over a 2 1/2 year period,it had an 11$ buy-in. with an average of 17-2100 players it took awhile to reach the end.Througout these 700 attempts I reached the final table zero times, and placed top 50 maybe 3-4 times.During this same time I won maybe 2-3 dozen smaller tourneys with avg of 2-400 players ,but with much smaller prize pools,and had final table showings on a weekly basis with many top 3 finishes as well.I also played in a nightly 3500$ tourney on another site with the same 1-2000 players. In that tourney I played in nightly over 1 year almost every night or 320 times in a year.I won twice , and had possibly 30 final table finishes including every possible place from 1-30th. The comparison in prize $ between the 3500$ tourney and the pokerstars 50k was massive obviously but the players remained about the same average.There seemed to be nothing different other than the sites and the tourneys which had less players which I did well in,the timeframe involved to finish. Funny thing was I noticed the difference being an hour or 2 additional time between a 400 player and a 2000 player,since hourly every hour 1/2 the players are eliminated and the prize pools paid out.
There is no other site I have ever seen online where the cards were so predictable that you (almost) knew the card was coming to turn or river you,as it does on poker stars ,time after time after... again and again,you dont need to think it might come,because it's coming guaranteed!!!. To this day the only thing I can figure is there were more players colluding on the larger tourneys on river stars than on the smaller $ tourneys held on other sites.Also I did assume some of them were playing multiple connects as well, which at that time wasn't that difficult,and still isn't. as i'd tried it myself just to see if I could do it,and yes it did for the most part. It seemed to me when 5-10 players get together and talk before a tourney and decided they would split whatever they won 5-10 ways,and talked about their hands while seated on the same tables collusion would be difficult to spot by the sites.And that it certainly does tilt the scales if their favour . I do not believe that the final 20-30 players in most all of the larger $$ tourneys are actually 30 individual players at all,but more like 15 players if that many playing seperate connects and different accounts meeting themselves on the final tables.This I have no doubt at all in any way. Since given that I now play in any 100 tournaments and don't see a single final table after playing well the majority of the time ,something else is at work behind the scenes, be it the ridiculousness of river stars program and/or collusion.A relatively decent player gets a free trip or two in that # of attempts no matter what,several normally on a decent site.My advice to everyone who doesn't win there is find another site where the deal seems right and continue to do so untill you do.Everest,fair poker which is noble poker now and pkr are the fairest sites i've ever played online, poker time formerly (royal vegas) are the only sites i've personally found that were real deals you would find if you played live (similar) deals.I never feel i'm going to lose before I do such as on poker stars repeatedly,basically every time.

I totally agree that PokerStars is rigged.
When started with PS I managed to win couple of biggish tournaments (over 2800 players) profiting over 20k$.
Somehow my luck totally changed after cashing out all my wins and ending up self-exclusing my account for half an year (after for example making a record of losing 6 consecutive AA's in big tournaments like Sunday Million).

After this first pause had similar experience and made second exclusion last summer. I just thought to try again before Christmas if something is changed but sadly it seems to be totally same.
After playing relatively big tournaments quite thight style I just have experienced dropping out with hands like AKs vs AKs other guy getting flush. Three times KK vs. AA. QQ vs Kx twice after K coming by river and so on.
What is strange here is that tournaments have gone quite well until that point where I had to go first time all-in and every time that has been the end for my tournament.
Last time was last Sunday Million. After 2,5 hours "silent" playing I finally got first bigger pair QQ and almost doubled my stack to 15000 chips, the very next hand I had JJ and lost immediately 12k chips. Next hand, on button, went all-in with A6 big blind calling and showing his K6 - easy quess what was end result, xxK A and finally river K - so obvious!

Anyway made conclusion that will end palying with PS totally which I made still on Sunday night but what was funny I went to cash games with my last 47€ (naturally pissed-off and idea to loose it because couldn't cash-out for one day) and playd practically all possible hands (disturbing so also other guys who were playing seriously - Sorry for that!).
What happened was that I won several funny hands increasing my stack to 115€ (though finally managed to loose that all). Practically I won all the hands where smaller stack was forced to go all-in rivering two pairs, 4 outer straights, flushes and so on.
Most memorable was hand where I had A6 and other guy KJ. Flob was TQA and other guy went all-in I called > Turn A and river 6 - I was shamed and sorry for the other guy who had to bring more money to the table (maybe PS's target?).

That experience was as well the final proof that I needed to finally leave PokerStars.
Good luck to you others who still have strength to try ; )

Do you chceck your opponent's mucked hands every time? If not, stop talk that online poker is rigged and start to do that. This is a must...

I'm amazed you can do this while playing heads up unless you only single table, I find opening the replayer distracting while multitabling . A better idea is to get HEM or PT which automatically shows mucked hands. Since you are highly profitable already I suggest you invest the 60-70 bucks and you don't have to focus on opening the replayer. It will probably increase your win rate. PT and HEM also store info on all the players you played with before. And the trial is free.

Yep, the deviations from the norm can be frustrating.

In the short-term, we can only hope to minimize exposure to the negative deviations and maximize exposure to the positive deviations. In the long-term, the average of all the deviations should approach the norm.

But it's hard to make the cards both random AND predictable.

BTW, several articles in Axman's Corner here in the forum present analyses of hands dealt at PokerStars, and all hands appeared to be near their normal expected values. Your experience may vary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2010 02:24PM by Axman.

To be honest I do trust sites like PokerStars and FullTilt, afterall would they risk BILLIONS over a $100 pot? These site pump money into live games and I feel do a lot for poker.

Now yes there are a few dodgy sites out there such as UB/AP, PitBull Poker and even Bwin have had some client problems so the best thing is play the big sites and remember that the donkey do win now and again.

HOGWASH, I read the same gripes on all poker forums. DON'T PLAY if you think you are being cheated.

of all the comments in this thread some would prove to be true,dont forget online pokersites are a business,pokerstars does seem to deal a lot of action inducing hands which = more rake,i have found that i seem to play at a profit untill i build a certain amount to my bankroll and then no matter what i do cant win till its gone or nearly gone but then go on a upswing and bang the cycle starts again,this keeps the money in play and generates more rake,if you are a losing player and never won you would eventually give up,thus reducing player numbers which = reduced rake,dont be fooled high stakes players generate more rake so the game may not play this way at higher levels,as they would soon exit if they felt they were being cheated,however at lower levels(micros) you will expect novice or bad players which means when they crack your monster with garbage,its not so noticeable,yes bad beats exist and basically are a must otherwise tournaments would never end,but it is demoralising if your always on the wrong end of them.but to everyone that says it isnt worth them ripping people off ,there really is very little risk to them(pokersites) because beyond something like the holecard scandal at ultimatebet,how could you ever prove their software is flawed/rigged or someones cheating? one last thing the fact that poker sites have team pros and many high stake players that make a good living/money from pokersites should not fool you.Yes they may be good players but if there was no benchmark/example of someone really making money as a player,what would everyone else aspire to,if nobody ever won the lottto who would buy a ticket,and before dismissing the chance that sites may be rigged, ask yourself would you play the slots at an online casino or even at your local club/pub,if your answers no they are rigged,the fact is they arent rigged but are programmed to only return a certain % of money to the players,they are there to make money and obviously do,otherwise they wouldnt exist hmmmmmmmm ........... remember at some stage someone must win the jackpot

Seriously?? We are all still debating this?
It has been known for a very long time that online poker sites are rigged. Either play and be ok with being cheated or quit playing and go play at the casino... I play on BETONLINE, it is no different then any other site. They all use a rigged program to deal. All I got to say is I made 47,296 dollars in 3 yrs while I was in college at UofA. I would drive to the Cherokee Casino and Downstream Casino 4 times a week to play, sometimes less if I had a good first day or two... Before that I played at home games for a yr and made rougly 4k... Now, I play online bc there is not a casino for hours and online poker in general is definetely rigged. Im currently typing this while Im being cheated by the rigged software on BETONLINE-

I was up 300 at 2:55 pm, took a break, came back to play at 3:30pm. I bought in for $25 on a .25-.50c table, and I was immediately dealt AA into trip 5s.... now Down to 275.... Bought back in for 25 on that table, and got on a 1-2 table with 125. On the 1-2 table was dealt AA the second hand, I flopped Aces full of sixes, Im heads up with a guy who bluffs the flop, bluffs the turn, goes all in on the river. I CALLED OF COURSE. He hit RUNNER RUNNER straight flush.... now down to 150.... Now back to the .25-.50 table. I make it 5 dollars to go(ten times the bb) with AK, flop comes AKQ, Im heads up with a guy who goes all in, I CALLED OF COURSE. He had 10.J, a straight.... now down to 125.... I buy back into a 1-2 game for my last 125( YOU SEE NO MATTER HOW MUCH I WANT TO BELIEVE ITS NOT RIGGED, IT IS, AND THE CARDS PROVE IT) . My first hand I was dealt AA, this guy puts me all in preflop, I CALLED OF COURSE. He has 33s( 33s for 125??) but anyways he flopped a set of course.... now back to where I started, just how the online sites love it... Its rigged guys, this stuff happens everyday, all day, and until these sites are regulated they will just continue to be rigged.

You are absolutely right....online games are not "random". Now listen Doc, you & I have played many a hand together at the track, and it's time someone in a position such as yourself(with a website and all) stands up and demands that a platform be designed that truly is "random"...as much as it can be considering RNGs.
RNGs aren't the problem...there's something amiss in the program that seems to deal directly to the individuals involved in the hand....example, let's say I'm on the button and pick-up AQ suited, folds all the way around to me. I raise a very respectable 5-6 times the BB to steal the blinds and call it done. But, the SB is short stacked and 3 bets me....after a think, I decide to call because I've watched the table closely and have decided that he/she has a mid pair....7s maybe.
Flop comes 10/Q/2...I make a nice continuation bet of 3/4s the pot. SB shoves which at this point only equates to another 3 bet raise....of course, I call cause I still put him/her on the 7s, they're just trying to steal it.
They turn over 5/5 (meaning I read them pretty well) I show my A/Q with top pair top kicker and they slump....
Turn is an A (this is important for later)* and as we all know the 5 comes on the river taking 25% of my stack when I did everything right to try and get maximum payoff... One could argue that I should have just shoved when I saw the Queen on the flop so as to prevent the SB chasing and making their set....believe me, I've tried it anywhich way you can think and the result is always the same. That result is, being ahead and still losing about 70% of the time. And I'm here to tell you that nothing in a truly random game happens consistently, 70% of the time. Now, of course you have to expect these beats sometimes...even lots when you're "running bad". But I'll say it again, nothing happens in the poker world 70% of the time. I can, like another poster stated, predict several of the hands now, you would think that would help, but it doesn't...it just adds to your frustration when you play TIGHT.

* This bit is for the guy who did the copy/paste about the pre and post flop deck randomizer.
That part is true, but the reason I hit the A on the turn was to ensure that if I hadn't gotten to a point where I would be willing to call his all in on the flop I would be now even to the river cause the 5 would appear harmless. So yes, the cards would have come the same way had I paused, or called instead of raise or shoved or whatever....but it was always predetermined that if it went to the river my giant 2 pair would lose to an improper call (pre & post flop) from a small pair that would eventually make a set.

Any disbelievers??? try this at home.(you don't even have to play a 1000 hands for this one, 100 should do)
-play a few sessions...ring game, sit-n-gos, tourneys....doesn't matter as long as its 6+ players.
-have a sheet of paper and make 2 columns.
-every time you have a pocket pair make a check in one column, every time that 1,2 or 3 other players have a pocket pair during that same hand make a check in the other column. You'll soon notice that as much as 90% of the time, if one player has a pocket pair at least one other player (and usually 2) also has a pocket pair...no big deal right, accept that in live poker that percentage never gets above 50%...Ever!! Actually, I have seen it get unusually high even in heads up.

Bottom Line, 90% ain't random gang. Hell, in poker 51% consistency ain't random.

So let's all band together and pay some software developer to create a truly random poker platform for people who want to play and don't mind losing as long as its true cards. call it PURE POKER

It's really very simple. If you're winning, keep playing. If not, stop.

Re: randomness. The brain is pre-programmed naturally to seek out patterns. It's very hard, if not impossible, for it to recognize true randomness.

I know big swings in luck can happen. I have gone on runs for weeks even months where I could not get a hand to hold up when I am favored. I take it as variance. Then on the other hand I have gone on heaters where no matter what I had seemed to hit. Thus my plus variance. Take your wins and losses with a grain of salt. For a while I focused on every bad beat and it hurt my game. Then I realized that I needed to look back thru my play and determine, was it something I did previously that induced a call by an opponent with a weak hand or did I just not play the hand right. When you look at your beats you can't just look at a single hand, look back thru your whole tourney and your play and reflect on that. Just my take on the subject. One hand can make or break your tourney, but the 100 before dictates how your opponent plays against you.

It only takes one a$$hole to make a bouquet of roses stink.

Listen peeps. I have read your posts. There is no need for me to repeat that on the allin situation where your 77 goes against 38 the flop 769 there will be 10 on the river or turn, of course there will be, just look at the flop. How many times your opponents sole card was surrounded by three others to give him open ender while he normally would be a pure nothing against your top pair, and how many times after that the straight DID NOT actually come. ITS too obv the site is rigged, the question is what to be done. I have played for 7 years now. Been to other sites, and there are sites outhere which are not as bad trust me. I have managed to make runs from 0-50$ to 2000$ or more countless times, around 10 in 2010-2011, but none of them came at PStars, just because your favourite hand (70-30) is losing way more than it should and almost 100% when it counts. How else would you win if this is not working huh. PStars replied to me multiple times with their Cigital bloody answers that they run a fair game. I asked them where exactly they are running that game couse I would like to try it out. People, please, help make poker better, do not play in the sites which you trully believe is not getting you there with the best game and shout it out, be a man. There should be no such thing as Mathematics of PokerStars, where depending on stacks size, your chat content or your mouse movement the cards are being dealt. PSTars will always find an answer which would try to fool you into believing it is all randomness, but after you spend years playing and see pattern in one site which is repeating itself on and on and people here are doing great job revealing it, which means not only you see it, its there, you know the game is not what real poker is called. Some great posts gents, do not give your pride away, do not give the pride of the game away. Let's not give traffic, close down these rooms or make them rebuild the shuffle on SUPERVISION, and not cigital (who?), but independant peeps, make revolution and build a foundation for a fair game.

Heres' my story.

2008 deposited $50 on the old pacific poker,after playiny 6 months prior to that,collecting 3m play chips.I ran that $50 up to $1k,using strict brm,which took about 7-8 months.

I then decided to deposit on pokerstars,$600.All the while,reading Dan Haringtons books,then later Colin Moshman 'sit&go strategy' Over the next 2-3 years..(can I just say that the first ever $4/180 man sit and go I won very easily,without even trying and I'd been playing on PS for a couple of days)...I'd ran my $600 up to $7k playing $5-$10 9man s&g's.Sure,some days and weeks-I would run terrible,just varience and pretty much, meh.All told, a very respectable 12% roi over an 11k sample.

Once bf happened,thats when all the bullshit started.I am b/e over a 4k sample.I'm not going to bore you with bad beats...yawn.However,from the minute my email box kept getting spamed with
''Liv Boeree joins pokerstars'' and ''how would you like the chance to play poker with our newest addition to team stars, Liv Boree?'' Then bink! 4 months later or so, she wins the sunday warm up.Incidentally,I saw with my own eyes' the ridiculous suckouts she inflicted on some of the players,as I railed her for the last 2-3 hours of that tourny.So,basically I'm saying what good P.R that is for pokerstars.

Dont get me wrong,I know all about 'selective memory' and what our mind/brain can trick you into thinking,but some things just dont 'add up' or seem ''strange.'' Also,not that long ago there was a prop bet on 2+2 with a player called 'phas58' or 'phase58' something like that.He had to play thousands of mid-high/stakes games in a month and be profitable too.So, with this prop bet,came lots of followers/bettors.He was way way down on the bet and almost quit,and by his own admission said ''It looks like I'm going to fail but may as well see if I can complete the volume at least'' Then with about 3/4 days to go ran as hot as you could possibly run,and by some miracle,finished the prop bet in profit.Really strange.However,once again,more good P.R for stars or to put it bluntly.If the many hundreds of followers witnessed this unfold before their very eyes' then maybe they could do it too,if you see what I mean...rake...rake...cough...cough.

Now,back to myself running b/e over 4k games.I decided to be more proactive and study/review sessions even more,to see if any leaks might have apeared.Here's where I had that ''gut feeling'' that something is very strange.Apon me going through about 500 full hh's (thats 500 full tournys) which took me a good month(after still playing each day) my hand re-player was full of 'dream flops' for the rec player,and never ending 'action' flops.So,my reasoning is,maybe if the recs' dont lose as fast as they should (at the exspence of the regs) or,if they flop quads/fullhouses/runner runner srtaight...etc.Then re-depositing,shouldn't seem so bad in the future.

The staff at support,are generally,excellent at what they do and you will always get a polite response like ''we provide you with all your hh's'' and ''here is a link to show our games are fair'' but lol,what is taking place,is very much under the radar,and its a certainty that anyone at support wouldn't know whats ''really'' going on.I believe it's 2/3 persons' who are the coruption behind the whole thing.The reason its' next to impossible to detect,is because poker is a highly volatile and high variance game,so over the long run,it would take millions of hands to prove anything against the 'norm.' So,they use this to manipulate things,ever so slightly and ''fly'' just under the radar,to generate more money (many more millions/keeping the carrot dangling for the recs') for the shareholders.

So,after 5yrs or so at PS - I have decided to cash out and play elsewhere.I'M running slightly under E.V but most importantly,I'm making some reasonable money again.

All the best.

At least you seem to have the data and analyses to base your suspicions on. Good luck!