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Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.

Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       November 08, 2009 08:01PM
Sometimes we get short stacked in a tournament to the point that when the big blind comes around again it will force us all in with whatever cards the dealer decides to give us. Now, you have to make a decision. You are at the point that I describe as, if you do not choose your cards, the blinds will choose them for you. There are a few things to keep in mind when making the decision as to what cards you will choose to play before the blinds get to you.

You must remember that you are so small stacked, you are not going to be pushing anyone out of the pot, so your all in is meaningless to the others at the table and their decision to call or fold.

One thing to remember is to think past the pre-flop action even though you won't have and chips to control the action post flop... your decision pre-flop can have some influence on what the other players do after the flop.... Example.

Say the blinds are 500/1000 and you have 1050. Alot of people are tempted to simply shove all 1050 into the pot. I think in most cases this is a mistake. You see if you shove, more times than not, you will simply get callers from all around the table, and a check down to the river to eliminate you, but if you were to simply call, then you increase the possibility that someone might raise in later position to get you all in, or they might bet after the flop to get you all in.. well it is only 50 to you to call, but now it will be 1000 for the other players in the hand to call, causing the other players to fold, giving you better odds, thus giving you protection.

Now, how to choose your cards to move all in with, as a short stack.

A pocket pair might just be the worst cards to choose to go with in this situation.(with Multiple callers) I mean even pocket Aces lose their ability to win with every caller that decides to get into the pot, and after you have shoved all your chips in you have nothing left to do that would allow you to protect those aces against draws. So in this case, aces are simply a 2 outer.

Give me a hand like 9 10 suited. That is the sort of hand I want to be all in with as a short stack. Hands like that have the best chance to win in a multi-way pot, which this more than likely will be because you are so short stacked. Suited connectors, have a chance of making a straight or a flush and both of those hands are usually powerful enough to survive a multi-way pot.

The last thing to remember is this... sometimes it is counter productive to get all your chips in before the big blind gets them in for you. Say you are under the gun with the Big Blind on your right. If you choose to go all in on this hand, and you win that hand. You still may not have accumulated enough chips to survive both the big blind and the small blind. So you might be better off to simply wait until the Big Blind comes and let the cards fall where they may, because if you happen to win that hand the small blind is less of a factor for you giving you 10 more hands before you have to make any decisions like that again.

Here is your example. You are Under the gun with the Big Blind on your right. The blinds are 500/1000 with 50 antes and you have 350 chips with 9 other players at the table. If you move all-in in this instance, and you get 4 callers, including the SB, you will get 1700 chips.. then next hand the BB and ante will cost you 1050 leaving you with 650, and the next hand you will be the small blind costing you 550, leaving you 100 chips, and being able to see 2 hands after that before the antes get you all in....

It might be better to let the Big Blind choose your cards for you, take the same example but with the big blind choosing your cards.

In that case you still have the same 1700 chips if you win that Big Blind hand, BUT.... after your Small blind passes you, then you will have 1150 in chips..... giving you some more free looks (less antes) at some more hands.

I hope you find this a help, and I look forward to your comments or questions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2009 10:14PM by DrCheckRaise.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       November 09, 2009 09:16PM
DrCheckRaise Wrote:


>
> Say the blinds are 500/1000 and you have 1050.
> Alot of people are tempted to simply shove all
> 1050 into the pot. I think in most cases this is
> a mistake. You see if you shove, more times than
> not, you will simply get callers from all around
> the table, and a check down to the river to
> eliminate you, but if you were to simply call,
> then you increase the possibility that someone
> might raise in later position to get you all in,
> or they might bet after the flop to get you all
> in.. well it is only 50 to you to call, but now it
> will be 1000 for the other players in the hand to
> call, causing the other players to fold, giving
> you better odds, thus giving you protection.
>


This is great advice.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       November 28, 2009 03:03AM
Some great points that I had never thought of. Thanks Doc
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       November 28, 2009 09:07AM
Thanks! I always wondered why someone would go all in less 50 chips. Now I understand why.

Kathleen
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       November 28, 2009 12:53PM
Me too. Thanks Doc! Good tip!
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 05, 2009 11:18PM
Great tip Doc. when's the next one? I know your very busy these days so maybe you can have some of the members contribute a tip of the week. Thx Heatman
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 06, 2009 12:05PM
Good advice, however I can not play that passive of a game. If your M zone ever gets lower than 4 you should be shoving with any 2 decent cards and not waiting for the big blind to make decisions for you. Waiting for only great hands ( in the later stages of a tournament) preflop is a losers way to play poker. You have to start getting aggressive when you M zone dips down to 8 or less. Knowing your Costs Per Round (CPR) is vitally important to winning tournments. If you only want to make it to ITM then passive play works, however if you want to win a tournament then you have to be aggressive before your M zone reaches the point where you have surrendered all of your fold equity. This is the reason over 90% of poker players never make any money. There is an element of luck that has to be relied on in order to win tournaments. Waiting for the big blind to make your decisions for you is your last stab at luck and you should try not to ever wait that long to try and win a situation where it might just come down to a coin flip. Force the action with a decent hand and you get the upper hand most of the time. I simply can not play a passive game, aggression (controlled aggression) is what wins poker games. Just my opinion though.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 06, 2009 08:17PM
Even playing a controlled aggressive game, as one should, there will be times when you find yourself in a situation as this thread is dealing with. Bad beats and suck outs do happen.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 06, 2009 09:24PM
Bad beats and suckout aare not the point of this dialoge. The point is whether tio shove or almost shove. Now I am in a quandry, because I think both theories are correct. As usual, what's missing is the type of the other players, etc..

Kathleen
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 07, 2009 10:26AM
IrishQueeen - you are correct, one has to consider the other players (loose, tight) and also the type of site (money or subscription). I have found most players, that I have seen play, either rely on too much "luck" to win games or not enough to carry them over the top. Finding the right balance is very tricky. Bad beats and suckouts happen to everyone, however when playing a tournament you have to compensate for those things by having a large enough stack to be able to weather those occurances. Waiting until the blinds dictate your actions; is not the way I want to play. I would rather get knocked out earlier than wait to get blinded out.

A side note: when you are near the bubble is a great time to get ultra-aggressive. Why? Because the people trying to just make it into the money will fold all but the extremely premium hands. This is another tactic to build your chip stack.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 07, 2009 03:21PM
Well Hellmuth and Negreanu disagree and say you should be patient. Lol, I even heard a pro once say he saw Phil blinded out once and that this was a bad thing!!!! ???????? For real? Dan says "wait another round" for a reason - it pays. "M" zones and such are just mathematical whatnots. Sure - shove with a decent hand - but don't do it with an almost decent hand.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 07, 2009 03:36PM
Yes, you should be getting aggressive near the bubble because everyone is playing tight - but you also have to factor in that calling ranges are getting wider here to counter aggressive bubble play. Also, poros that say you should be "playing to win" are weak tournament players who are willing to gamble. They make their living playing cash games and one big tourney win will seal their celebrity status. Tournament pros are not playing to win - they are playing, to win.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 27, 2009 02:03AM
I think you should understand the ICM (Independant Chip Model) especially in Single table tournaments. If only the last 3 places get paid for example; that means that each of the final three players usually get 60% for 1st, 30% for 2nd, and 20% for 3rd. If you make it down to the final 3 then 60% of the total money has already been awarded, and you only gain an additional 10% for winning second place. In this situation you have to risk that 10% in order to put yourself in a position to win the tournament and take an extra 30% therefore you should play to win it all or nothing.

To do good in larger multi table tournaments (MTTs) you have to accomplish 3 goals.

1.) Make it to (ITM) in the money.

2.) Make it to the final table (FT).

3.) Win it all outright.

There are no seperate stages in cash games, the blinds are always the same and you can come and go when you like.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 27, 2009 02:34AM
Must be just a typo, but I'm sure you meant 50%, 30%, 20% re: payouts.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       December 25, 2009 02:49PM
You can get into that type of predicament not by choice, but by simply being on the losing end of a big pot, and you are next for, or close to being, the big blind (which may be why you were involved in a big pot in the first place).
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       January 09, 2010 10:09AM
All good stuff here and as Irish Queen implies, sometimes opposing models can both be correct. "Always call (any sized bet) with AK" is sound mathematical advice but I doubt any of us follow it religiously.
Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
avatar Subject :  Re: Tournament Big Blind About To Put You All In.
Date:       January 10, 2010 06:07PM
Hay Doc long time no see....I haven't had much time to log on here .......and boy the stuff I have been missing!!!!
Your tip of the week is the shizzzal....and the DJ & the Doc podcast is real good......

I am planning to become a little more active here. It's time I get some real help with my game.........and the tip of the week is a good way to start.

ty gg
VADER

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